DVT deep vein thrombosis forum

       Home    1

number of replies (19) - Page 1 of 1
Started by Patty
Posted: December 20, 2007 at 15:36
My doctor just took me off Coumadin because my clot has not changed and put me on Lovenox injections. Does anyone understand how Lovenox is different and why I don't need to have my INR checked? He suspects blood clotting disorder and is testing for that.

Thanks all, Happy Holidays!

Re: Lovenox
Reply #1 by Bob
Posted: December 22, 2007 at 20:32
Hi Patty-
It may be a little surprising that you were taken off coumadin and put on Levonox because your clot had not changed. As others have said, the anticoagulant (whether coumadin or Lovenox) does not dissolve your clot, itís purpose is to prevent further growth. For many, the clot takes a long time to change. For me, the clot had not changed 6 months after my DVT even though I was still taking coumadin. My hematologist had me read an often quoted study reporting that 3 months after DVT only 20% of patients had normal results by ultrasound. As I understand it, there is an important difference between clot change and improved venous flow. Even though the main veins may remain clotted (as seen on ultrasound), other veins open up and improve the venous flow and the symptoms decrease. So, it is encouraging if the clot changes, but the lack of change is not unusual and does not suggest inadequate treatment (unless on TPA). Good luck!

You can find this article is on Pub Med http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez
Prandoni P. et. Al., Residual venous thrombosis as a predictive factor of recurrent venous thromboembolism. Ann Intern Med 2002 vol. 137 p. 955-960

Re: Lovenox
Reply #2 by Tom R. Vegan
Posted: December 23, 2007 at 02:40
It is very interesting reading of how the doctors tell the patients not to worry if their DVT's don't clear up after months on anticoagulants like Lovenox or Coumadin, and how certain symptoms like muscle cramping in the affected leg aren't related to the DVT. Also, looking for a medicice that is "safe" for a cold, etc. The answers to these problems all become rather simplistic once one evaluates them from the perspective of a medical model that is based on the body's ability to heal itself, rather than to be "cured" by some outside factor we call "medicine." There is NO medicine that cures any disease! Think about that the next time they ask you to contribute more billions of dollars to the black hole of medical research for a "cure" such as cancer. All that drugs do is alleviate symptoms, and this is the reason that ALL drugs have what are termed "side effects." The only thing that has the "intelligence" to target a disease state, is the body itself. By removing the cause of the illness or disease, which for the most part is due to years of consuming processed and cooked (read: subjected to extremes in temperature that destroy all nutrition) foods, and substituting, whole, fresh, and raw fruits and vegetables--the way nature provides us our foods--the body will now be able to effect a cure. The mainstream medical system (including most alternative) is based upon a medical model that says we have come down with an illness from a "germ" or "heredity" or the environment has dealt us a chronic disease, and we need a medicine to cure us. This medical model states that only the body can cure itself. This system many have used to both maximize health and fitness, but also to cure diseases as diverse as diabetes, cancer, heart disease, colitis and crohn's disease, as well as eliminate all flu's and colds. The results are often realized stunningly quick for those who are willing to make the lifestyle changes necessary to break from the food addictions of 50 or more years.

What does this have to do with DVT's you may ask. The answer is simply, everything! Once you are on a healthy diet, and able to wean yourself off of the drugs, the body will remedy the thrombotic blood disease condition, preventing further re-occurance of clots, and then dissolving those that are present.

To summarize, medicines and drugs, which are toxic to even a healthy body, do not cure any illness or disease state. Remove those things in our environment which are harmful and toxic, like cooked foods, especially meat and dairy products, and replace them with the healthy nutrition of fresh fruits and vegetables, and the body will cure itself.
Re: Lovenox
Reply #3 by Justin the meat eater
Posted: December 23, 2007 at 03:16
You're a quack............ Save it for the hippies. Well I must go and cook up some more moose yum yum
Re: Lovenox
Reply #4 by Sharon (carnivor extraordinar)
Posted: December 24, 2007 at 07:05
Mr. Vegan--Let me put Justin's well-put message a bit more eloquently so your high and mightiness can understand our postion. You are giving very irresponsible advice to people who need to take their anticoagulant w/o fail. Please stop making suggestions that can kill people or cause them to loose a limb--if you have a conscience....

Patty--The Low Molecular Weight Heparins (LMWH) are tested with an AntiXa (X=10). INR will go back to the normal 1, but you are still anticoagulated and do not have to test as often bcs there is no fluctuation caused by foods--so take that Tom R. Vegan! Patty, you can eat vegatables or meat to your hearts content and not worry about changing your levels.

However, you do have to make sure that you take it on time. Lovenox has a 12 hour half life, so if you are more than 2 hours late, it is considered a missed dose. I take Arixtra, which has a 24 hour half life so it is once a day (tho Lovenox makes a much sharper needle and better syringe I think). The Arixtra does not burn after the injection either like Lovenox. I did read something that says many doctors take the approach of returning people to the LMWHs if clots don't resolve fast enough for them, but cannot remember why to save me. I'll send the link if I run across it again. Bob is right they do not dissolve clot either.

Re: Lovenox
Reply #5 by Tom R. Vegan
Posted: December 24, 2007 at 17:33
Wow! Who are the High and Mighty ones now? Isn't it rather paradoxical that the ones giving what they consider the best advice and the last word concerning such a disease state as that of either acute or chronic DVT's, are THEMSELVES suffering from such a debilitating condition? At the same time, they are able to say without reservation that "you can eat...meat to your hearts content and not worry." Yes, it may not affect your PTT or your INR, and you can go ahead and live your life trying to chase these lab values, but for some people these values will change inexplicably, and for NONE of them do the correct range ever produce HEALTH. And I hate to pop your bubble, but eating meat or even "moose yum yum" indiscriminately will not lead to a "content heart," but eventually to a very sick one, with plaque clogged arteries and veins. No primate on the face of the earth was designed by its Creator to eat a diet of meat, so why are you so arrogant as to infer that it is not related to the health conditions which all of you are apparently suffering from? (Please name one anatomical similarity we share with the carnivores--and don't name the spatulate canine teeth--as these differ as well.) As for "Justin the meat eater," it would seem as though the "moose yum yum" that you have been living on for so many years has adversely affected the part of your brain that is involved in logical discourse, or is name calling how you always "win" your debates?

As for the charge of "giving very irresponsible advice," please note that I did NOT tell them to simply stop taking their anticoagulants but rather described the option of changing to a healthy diet and then WEANING themselves off, just as your doctor weans you off of your heparin when switching to an oral anticoagulant like Coumadin. The difference is that once one is returned to health, they never have to again worry about DVT's, while those on drugs will continue to suffer from some chronic condition most likely up until the time it, or a drug side effect or drug induced condition, kills them. If you don't want to become healthy, then I would be the last one to suggest you just stop taking your drugs. (Actually, I benefit if you DO take drugs, but that is another story.)

I have never had to be on prescription drugs and have no need for any type of medication. The option is open to others if they want to pursue it, but for many, the thought of giving up their "yum yum" addictions is out of the question.

Good luck!
Re: Lovenox
Reply #6 by Tom the Reject
Posted: December 24, 2007 at 22:29
If we wanted advice from you we would of asked!! Since your diet of fruit obviously turned you into one ( No offense to anyone but Tom ),=. You think that because people eat meat, that this is all they eat? Did your ancestors eat meat?? That must of been all they ate.
Re: Lovenox
Reply #7 by Toms buddy
Posted: December 24, 2007 at 22:35
Hey Tom come back when you need medical attension and let us know how the vegetables cured you.. Im not saying anything is wrong with eating healthy.. In fact I believe everyone should. I do however believe that people like yourself who try and play god hurt lots of people!! So good luck to you, find a new group to piss off.
Re: Lovenox
Reply #8 by Tom R. Vegan
Posted: December 24, 2007 at 23:28
"You would have asked." Oh, excuse me, I thought forums were places people discussed things, exchanged ideas and got "advice." Hmmm, Reply #6 and #7, not able to put your name to it? (My guess is it is "Justin the meat eater.") Understandable from the replies. I see from the attitudes why some of you people are victims (that is how you seem to view yourselves) of such chronic diseases. (Or don't you consider a blood disorder that results in clots, as a disease?) Please tell me what the cause is, since according to those of superior wisdom that have been responding to me, KNOW it is not due to diet? Is it due to age? Then how come even those in their teens succumb?

Why do you think I will need medical attention? I told you that I know of many who were in worse condition than those here and they are now living healthy lives.

Why do you say that I am hurting people. Is it your learned opinio that good nutrition is somehow contraindicated for certain medical conditions? Just try and answer some of these questions, and who knows I may be convinced to try your diets, and then I guess if I end up with a DVT, I will be accepted here? Is that how it works. Notice that you are the ones doing all of the attacking.

Hey, if you had a little too much "moose yum yum," take a Tums for the tummy, and if you aren't in a better disposition by the morning, call your Shrink!
Re: Lovenox
Reply #9 by Justin
Posted: December 25, 2007 at 01:02
It is called a family inherited protein deficency, Mr. Brain, So at my next meeting I will stand up say hello my name is Justin I am addicted to good food and warfarin, I tried to kick this addiction by using lots of vitamin k and eating a crop of spinach but it just seems to make me worse,,, Dont get me totally wrong Tom you seem to have a good heart.. But your advice would be better to different people,,, It was fun I hope you have a Good Holiday, Remember no meat no wine and everything will be just fine.
Re: Lovenox
Reply #10 by Tom R. Vegan
Posted: December 25, 2007 at 02:33
Yes, modern medicine excels in one area--the ability to put names to "diseases." So now that you are able to put the name to this illness, do you think this explains the "cause?" Are you able to explain why this condition is epidemic in western countries, but unheard of in societies that have not "inherited" western dietary and processed food habits? Oh, you are also great at throwing out names at people that you seem incapable of debating. Guess I was right about who sent replies 7 and 8 too. By the way, where did I advise "using lots of vitamin K" or any other supplement? And, yes I do seem to "have a good heart" and that is helpful when windsurfing or snowboarding, or cycling, and other activities important in keeping active and in good health, and enjoying life. Yes, there are other things important to being healthy besides diet, but I guess that wouldn't be of interest to someone with your repertoire of pills.

It is obvious that my advice is wasted upon some of you, but then if it was just snake oil that I was selling, I would think it would be easy to ignore without becoming upset. Is it the fact that I haven't said anything that can be refuted that is really bothering you? Would you be kind enough to explain why you are afraid of having others on this forum read what is here? Is it because you feel insecure and fear others may make an educated choice to recover and no longer be dependent upon drugs, or is just that misery loves company?

You seem to imply that I don't enjoy the food that I eat or know how to have a good time. Another thing you are wrong about, but it seems you have a hard time getting anything right. However, your answers are getting a little longer than "Your a quack," so keep at it and you might actually reach the point where you are able to answer some of the questions I have posed.

While I am dining on succulent fresh tropical fruits, I will be thinking of you eating your pot of moose stew, and other carrion yum yum...and then washing down your Coumadin with a nice vintage red wine. Oh, I almost forgot, you are advised to AVOID ALCOHOL when on that drug. And watch out for a spinach salad, since you aren't normally including that as part of your diet. Did you know that there is an increase risk with patients taking Coumadin who are vitamin K deficient? But it seems that there are a lot of things Justin isn't aware of. Must be quite a problem having to avoid such things as fresh, raw vegetables like lettuce, broccoli, carrots, red and yellow peppers, and tomatoes. I'll bet you avoid fresh bananas, pineapples, melons, peaches, plums, apricots, mangoes, strawberries, papaya, and durian, too. No problem with chips, steaks, hamburgers, hot dogs, steak 'n kidney pudding, cheese and other forms of putrefied milk fat though? Yum, yum.
Have a Good Holiday, and hope you survive the meals, "and everything will be just fine."
P.S. Just in case, I suggest keeping the phone number of the ER and ambulance on the refrigerator.
Re: Lovenox
Reply #11 by Justin
Posted: December 25, 2007 at 20:51
Well Tom if that is your real name, you couldnt have been more wrong about me!! I eat several different fruits and veggies everyday, I dont eat hot dogs or kidney pudding (whatever that is) I dont drink milk and I rarely eat red meats, Mostly fish and chicken(Im sure that is still bad for you) I am so proud of all those activities you do, My list of activities is like that just I have many more,, You coming off as one of those religous fanatics that believes they are the only one who is right about anything. It is good to believe in something just dont force your beliefs on anyone else, Or tell them they are wrong for believing what they do!! I was not hiding who I am But yeah you proven how smart you are!?.. This will be the last time I respond to you,, Being I am just feeding your fuel. Sorry fuel is bad too, well sorry if you have been offended and eat some papaya for me....
Re: Lovenox
Reply #12 by dero
Posted: December 25, 2007 at 23:28
This is actually turning into a joke.
MOST people do see you (Mr. Vegan) as what you are, a preacher that is preaching to the wrong people. Yes I agree that you are very knowledgeable in your field, I too did partake in many sports such as mountain biking, hiking, x-country skiing so on and so forth.
Did not have an ounce of fat, fit as a fiddle you could say.
Have many friends that are dieticians and personal trainers (professionals in the sport field) and none of them ever told me that meat should me taken off of my diet. To preach to people,like you have been doing, to people that are inflicted by this disease (DVT or PE or...)can be very annoying to listen to. Unless you are hit by this, you will never understand what we are going through, as a meat eater or not.
At this point and time I suggest to anybody that is thinking of following Mr. Vegan's way of life, that you check with your doctor, because this is a drastic change for one's body, you have to understand that if this was to take place when you are not under the hooks of DVT, it may be the right thing to do, but as it is, this can trigger many complications.

This is also my last comment to this topic.
Have a great festive holiday.


Re: Lovenox
Reply #13 by dero
Posted: December 26, 2007 at 01:28
BTW,having the phone # on the fridge is kind of useless if your phone is not in the kitchen and who can't remember 911?

dero out...
Re: Lovenox
Reply #14 by Sharon
Posted: December 26, 2007 at 06:34
I'm glad you're not answering him anymore. I can't even read him anymore. I am just sorry that Patty's topic got messed up by these tangients when she is new to the site.
Re: Lovenox
Reply #15 by plummaFlabs
Posted: November 10, 2008 at 21:24
Maybe the problem is that I expected it to be easy and learned too late that is extremely challenging. The difficulty of life combined with the disapointment brought by major experience (love, work, friendship) keeps me up or makes me bury my head under the pillow.
Re: Lovenox
Reply #16 by Itanigotoni
Posted: November 12, 2008 at 21:07
So I've been sorta-kinda told that I'll bring into the world a job in D.C. waiting for me when I graduate (don't ask, hunger thriller). I planned on unfixed there after undergrad anyways, but this makes it more apposite that I pass on pick up stakes and go to Washington.

I hankering to understand ifiable widespread info. more D.C. Basically, whatever comes to your mind. What's standoffish more it? Is it vibrant, lots of restaurants/bars/etc. around? Does it deceive foot transport ahunger the lines of NYC or LA or Chicago (not with child it to be as blunt as those)?

I judge the key questions are "Is it a avail city to busy" and "Do you/did you get high on living in D.C.".

Again, deem unencumbered to ifiable bounce off whatever comes to mind. Thanks in advance.
Re: Lovenox
Reply #17 by ArimaWera
Posted: November 14, 2008 at 07:29
allowed the boot eventually Friday. I'm not solid why, but I expected more than a Friday appointment striking me I'm done when I've expanded there 8 years. It's a limited visitors, and they certainly knew this was coming- why do I get no warning?

2 weeks sat any timeance. taxing to exact unemployment when your past proprietor is deferring your incontrovertible curb is a joke. The procedure is set up to root intimidate without warning span of time unemployment needs. equalize nonetheless I haven't expanded since wear week, I am not fit to be entitled to a week until 4 weeks from now- because my finishing curb for preceding weeks of animate counts as currently earned proceeds

The ironic take a hand in of it all? I got another job yesterday- wagerer visitors, infinitely punter moment, wagerer pay. I am fucking favoured- I indubitably don't uncommonly earn this with the other out of work predilection floating there out there.

All I can say is, say you God for friends that look out for you. Eexact job I've at any point had has roll in from netresolveing and friends, and that has check in thru again for me, in what has been a totally bad few months.

The avoirdupois has been lifted a rarely and it feels great.
Re: Lovenox
Reply #18 by bonrexove
Posted: November 16, 2008 at 23:03
Okay, this is a happy moment.
I fixed the washing machine. I tried this a few weeks back and nothing worked right then (got it working though), but today the thing just fell apart again. I popped open the front cover, the motor was (this time) easy to remove, I super-glued the bottom pulley back together, and it was running again in 30 minutes. The squeak and rattle are gone. And it looks like this time they'll stay gone!
What's your recent victory?
Re: Lovenox
Reply #19 by KC
Posted: December 12, 2008 at 02:10
My 22 year old son has experienced 2 massive pulmonary embolisms within 9 months. He is now on Lovenox injections twice daily. It's so hard to think this may be necessary "forever". Any words of wisdom I can provide him with from those that have been there would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Happy Holidays to all.
Reply to this topic    or     Start New Topic

Your Name:
Reply Subject: Re: Lovenox
(You may enter up to 3001 characters)

characters left

Type the characters shown in the image for verification 2: